How to build a Church Communications Tool Box

with Barbara Carneiro

Barbara is the founder of Word Revolution (a communication and design agency for Christian ministries) and the brain behind 4:12 Lab (a training program for Church Communication).

She is Christ-follower, forever curious strategist, minimalist designer, storyteller, and geek. You will make her happy with white chocolate mocha.

Links mentioned in the show:

Church Marketing Ideas Podcast Transcript (with Barbara Carneiro and Adam McLaughlin)

Adam: Barbara, thank you so much for hanging out with me today.

Barbara: Oh, you’re welcome. It’s always a pleasure.

Adam: I know. We just have so much fun together and you know, we might actually talk about important things or we might just hang out and let people hear what that’s like. I know we have so much fun when we get to chat. Yeah, that’s true. Today I’m excited to be chatting with you about how do we keep our focus and not chase the shiny new objects because there is always something new showing up on our plates, whether that’s a communication strategy or a new idea or implementing a new social media channel or a new project management tool. And so first, before we dig into all of that stuff, I’d like it if you could tell us just a little bit about your experience and how you help yourself not jump on shiny new objects all the time.

Barbara: Well, I guess I’m a recovering shiny object, you know, addicts if you want to call it that way. You know, I’m, I’m an accidental church communicator. So I kind of inherited the hat without knowing it was a thing. And you know, the minute you see it, you’re just like, oh, I’m updating the website. Oh, I’m creating the bulletin. Oh. And so that takes you into this journey of looking for solutions and fools and you know, just help you streamline what you’re doing and don’t Google stuff because you’re going to find so much. Right. and, and I have many of those moments of just saying to myself, just don’t Google it. Don’t Google it. Don’t Google it. Cause you’re going to find it. If you, if you, if you search, you’re going to find it. And places like product hunt alone you know, all you need to do is type one keyword and it’s gonna bring up a bunch of most of them startups that can get us very distracted very easily.

Barbara: So that’s one thing I had to cut soon enough was like unsubscribed from them. Use letters because every day I would be like, Whoa, there’s all of these new tools that are coming up, literally daily. So having the discipline for me is not easy just to say don’t do it. It’s not easy. I had to find a way around it. So for me, that had to be something greater than just, you know, hitting myself and they hadn’t signed, don’t vote that day. But the more you say don’t touch it, what do you want to do? Do you want to touch it? So, yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was beyond, it was, it had to be something beyond just the command to not go do it. So

Adam: Yeah, I hear you. And I think part of it, at least for me is that I’ll use a tool and I really love the tool, but it doesn’t do that one thing I want it to do. Right. And so then I go looking for a new tool that does everything my current tool does, plus that one new thing. And so how do you find the balance between looking for something that could potentially replace everything you do? Which hopefully would be the most streamlined solution versus building a toolbox of, of little tiny things that each do the pieces you need.

Barbara: Yeah, that’s actually good, I’m glad you used the word toolbox because I’m a tool shed is what we call it a tool shed. I just think it’s funnier. It was one of the first documents that we created internally. And let me tell you why it came from the need of even keeping track of what we had available. Because I’m not, I’m not going to tell you how many times I bought a deal on AppSumo and then later somebody would tell me about it and I would create an account and it would tell me you already have an account with this software. And I was like, no, I don’t. And indeed I would check. And here I am not only had I paid for it, sitting in my, I don’t know where for, I don’t know, three years, never demoed it, never tried it on, never used it.

Barbara: And so I recognize, okay, I’m wasting time going through these feature lists and you know, trying to understand these stools. I don’t know how many times because I forget that I actually have tested it out in the past or whatever the reason was. So let me back up just a little bit because for me, the core of what I want to share with you today is people over process, process over tools.

  • So we always start with people.
  • The second is process
  • and the third one is the tool.

And the way that this plays out is very easy. First you need to know how many people you have available to do what, right? Because I can have you just mentioned the idea of you know, one piece of software that does it all versus two or three pieces of software.

Barbara: But who are the people using them? The super powerful one may be so complex that my team may not be able or the volunteer that is assigned to that tool may have like this huge learning curve. So maybe it’s better to have two simpler tools instead of this one big complex, you know the platform and how to make those decisions. I can’t decide based on price, I can’t decide based off functionality. I really needed to look at my people first. Is it easy for me to train them? Are they even willing? And sometimes you know, the time that it takes for you to get buy-in from people is enough for you to say whatever. Let’s just go back. You know, so you gotta, you gotta measure those out. And I had situations where I suggested just put a calendar on the wall.

Barbara: You don’t need a project management system. Literally red piece of paper put on the wall or some vinyl and you know that’s your calendar and you can Excel with it because the power is not in the tool. And so the first step is, is to assess I guess or create an inventory of who do you have available. Because only then you can decide what else to do after that. So maybe you only have yourself and that makes it easy for you to make decisions because you know how much you can handle. You know how savvy you are, you know, you know how much time you have to invest in learning new tools. But I’m pretty sure you’re going to have at least one volunteer. Hopefully, you do because if you don’t then you probably have a different problem which is you’re not delegating but you may have at least one other person either now or in the near future.

Barbara: And I want to be able to look at that person and be like, okay, is this something that this person can use? I know that’s true for my team with I lead the prayer team at my church and we’ve been sending emails out with prayer requests and I’m trying to move them away to something different. I’m trying, I actually have, there’s an app that can help you with that and I’m trying to train them on how to use it, but I can’t do it like a clean-cut from now on. We’re all going to do this now. I’m going to transition them slowly. You’re training them how to use it and get them familiar with the tool first before we can actually all start using it until then email is just fine. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so anyway, go ahead.

Adam: No, no, no. It’s great. I feel like I could just say, and here’s Barbara and then we could have the rest of the podcast listening to your wisdom. Just, Oh my, it’s, it’s beautiful. \

Barbara: Listen, it’s all trial and error that all the things I know is because I made so many mistakes in the past.

Adam: How do you know when it’s time to give up on a tool that’s not working? Because sometimes in, in my world you know, you and I were, it wasn’t you. It was me struggling to get zoom going so we could do this podcast interview. And I come across sometimes as technologically savvy and that’s not me at all. So sometimes I hold onto a tool for so long just cause I refused to try something else or I would rather just not go through the hassle. When do you know it is time to chase that new and shiny?

Barbara: Yeah. So you know, again, it starts with your people, but then the second step of it is going to be your processes. So what are you currently doing? Like what does your normal day look like? Are those processes outline? So let’s say, for example, just social media alone. Okay. I have, let’s say content that comes from the sermon series from the sermon, from that day. Those little, you know, pieces that I want to use in social media. Those need to eventually become images or videos and those eventually needed to be scheduled. So I’m going to use a specific process to get this done. That means I need to listen to the sermon, collect that information, design them, or create videos out of it, and then from there, schedule it. So that means in this process, what is how can I streamline it so I’m not constantly wasting time?

Barbara: Okay. So my first, the first thing that we try to do is we have somebody listening to the sermon and it’s just typing in those, those tidbits. So that person is actually not even creating any design. That person is just looking those little pieces and bits here and there. And that can be any volunteer, anybody just tell them, Hey, listen to the sermon, write down things that are short. I mean think, tweet kind of materials, things that are short and just write them down. That’s all. So that’s one person’s task. And in that process, they don’t need anything. They can just use, you know, whatever tool. Like, I don’t know, Google drive, you name it, right? But then let’s go to the design. Okay. So all of these things are created and there will be another person that will be able to, and by the way, this could be the same person.

Barbara: I would just recommend, like don’t try to design as you’re getting the information from the sermon, separate the tasks. So it’s easier. So once the design is that the text is available to start designing. So here you can see, okay, well I can use Canva for I don’t know anything that is graphic. Maybe there are some tools that I can use for video. And at this point, I need to assess, okay, how fast am I able to produce as mature every week? How much time is it? Is it taking? And so get an idea of how much time you’re actually spending just creating these images. Is there a way for me to then expedite it? I know, for example, your, you’re launching a service to have videos done from your sermon. So maybe instead of spending, I don’t know eight hours, five hours trying to figure out a video software, it’s probably going to be easy for you to outsource this.

Barbara: So there will be pieces where you even going to see the time spent and the money spent is not worth it. And sometimes we forget. We think that, Oh, I’m, it’s just time. It’s just my time, eight hours while somebody is paying for those eight hours. Right? So somebody is paying for that and if nobody is, your family will be your health may be. So I’m looking at those things. I need to see if I just observe my workload on a given week. I’m hoping that you have an idea where your time is going. And so one thing we do is, is look at, just take one week as an example, and as you’re doing tasks, you write them down and you see, okay, hold on. I’m spending a solid 20 hours a week just on social media. What can I do? Is there a tool that can automate what I’m doing better than the one that I’m using?

Barbara: Do I need to outsource it? Do I need to delegate it or do I just need to stop doing this altogether? Sometimes we’re stuck in tasks that are bringing no return. Right? Right. but here’s how I normally noticed. I start to get upset or frustrated with the piece of software that I’m using far more than I normally would. I dread starting the task because I don’t want to use that piece of software. Or if it’s requiring too many little you know, copy from here, paste there, then import here, then transfer there. Then I mean, every time you have a situation where you feel like there has to be a way that is normally a key or a red flag, I would say to say, okay, I need to figure out, because if I’m having this struggle, other people are probably going through the same process.

Barbara: So there has to be something out there that has solved this problem. So at that moment, you can even look for a specific solution for that problem instead of just like, well, let me find a whole new tool, you know? So sometimes it’s just a process. Your process may be redundant or out of order. Let me give you one example. Sometimes we would do I dunno, brochures a for, I don’t know when women’s retreat and we would start designing and everything was ready and then at the end, we’d be like, okay, who’s printing this? Oh, it’s the print or such and such and such and such has the contact with that person. So we would call and by the time we’re calling them, they’re like, Oh, we don’t have that size brochure and we only accept InDesign files. And so now we’re like, okay, we’re going to have to redo this whole thing right now. Knowing that that’s the process, you can then start saying, okay, let’s ask from the beginning who’s printing this? What’s the format that they accept, what kind of templates they need us to use, and how are we supposed to submit the files at the end? So that becomes a place where you can look at your process and you can recognize, Holy moly, I’ve been wasting all of this time. Once the piece was ready, that could have been completely avoided at the beginning. You know?

Adam: So talk to me, you, I hear you talking about the process and getting that straight when you’re experiencing some frustration or redundancy. And that makes me think of things that we do over and over and over and over again. And, and those things are probably automated somewhere. So without Googling and getting 8 million results about how to automate something, but knowing there’s probably a tool out there, what do you find is the best way to find a high-quality tool without getting stuck down the Google wormhole?

Barbara: Yeah. So I don’t think I Google tools often to be honest with you. So my first resource is always the people. They’re doing the same thing I’m doing. Hey, what do you guys, you know, using for X, Y, and Z and a, is there a solution out there that can do X, Y, and Z? So those are normally that’s not really my first go-to. The second one, this may sound very simple, but many people don’t know about this. Go to Zapier and see what kind of integrations are there. And you may find tools. They’re already doing what you need to do without abandoning the tools that you already have. So I sometimes I was able to find tools just looking at the available apps. There’s like, Oh, I never knew about that one without, again, without getting lost in the, of Google. Right. And I’m the final one. But again, this one is a tricky one because the broad account is, is phenomenal, but again, you can get sucked in really fast. So, you know, it’s easy to be distracted by all of the other tools that they have available. But whenever I have a very specific need, sometimes I will check there as well. And finally, this is like, just go ahead and you know, I’m just gonna shame myself. I go into my absolute Academy.

Adam: Have I ever purchased something that does this? That was just sitting there a couple of times. I have, I just had it

Barbara: A situation not too far too long ago. I think it was not last month. And we needed to do reporting for social media and I was like, I don’t even know where to start to find a tool that fits my needs. And you know, I went into my AppSumo account that was water graph and I’m, I was like, okay, well I know I paid for, it’s already here. Let me give this a shot. Took me five minutes report, fully ready client, extremely happy with the results. And I’m like, that was awesome.

Adam: Nice. So I hear you saying we need to prioritize people first and then we will talk about processes. And then the last step in the chain is to figure out tools. So how can we make this shift if the church we’re a part of is focusing more on tools and processes and then the assumption is we’ll get somebody to do it. How can we help our culture change to focus on people?

Barbara: Right? So, you know, people are a resource just as much as money is. And people money time, like these, are resources that sometimes we don’t value as much as we value money. But here’s the thing, like time doesn’t go back. You can’t go back. You can’t get more of, we all have the same amount. And your people will burn out. Your people will feel it. You know, when people are messy, let’s be honest, when there’s no vision, you don’t know where. No, I mean it’s even in the Bible, right? A man with no visual pair. So you see that when there’s no vision casting, these are literally just people. I don’t know, sitting around waiting for somebody to give them a task that they don’t own a task, that they don’t feel like they have any, you know worth as far as executing that task.

Barbara: So how can we shift? It’s very, very easy. I mean, for me sometimes the main question that I have to ask all the time is who do I have available and what are the skills and talents that they currently have, like right now? Because we can leverage those right now more than I can leverage a tool. And if you try to impose a tool on somebody, chances are you’re going to have that person feel, you know, my voice is not heard or they don’t care about my opinion. And again, I believe there are times where tools have to be, you know, you have to cast vision for things that will be better over time, you know, so I wouldn’t suggest people using Publisher nowadays anymore. For example. I think there are even basic tools there are far better that don’t require a crazy level of, you know, savviness when it comes to computers.

Barbara: So I would say there are tools that we can, it’s time for us to move on. But I wouldn’t impose a tool on somebody just for the sake of imposing that tool. So if there is resistant, I think there’s more value in training and teaching and casting vision, then there isn’t simply saying we’re going to do this because this is the best tool that we have found for this task. So people have to come first. We just need to follow the example of Jesus. He did it. We need to do it as well. And I know it sounds super like, okay, now I’m just going to go back into the Jesus mode and tell he will, he did. And we need to do the same thing. But it’s, you know, his model works and, and he was always paying attention to how people reacted and related.

Barbara: And so your people will be your best asset. And by the way, you are one of them. So picking a tool that other churches are using just because other churches are using at the expense of the crazy amount of time, are you going to spend, try to learn? It may not be the best option either. So we’ve gotta be wise, you know, at the end of the day, it’s your time that you’re wasting. It’s your family time that you may have to let go of to learn this very complex, high-end tool that may never do anything for your church. So

Adam: Speaking of complex tools that may never do anything for our church, what about the newest and latest social media channel? Don’t want to have to be there. There are people there. We have to be there. You know, help me understand, Barbara helped me.

Barbara: Yeah. So I think that many times I talk to my clients and they look at me funny. They’re like, you’re supposed to be selling me stuff and you’re telling me not to do it. And I’m very often you’re going to be, you’re going to hear me saying, you know, run lean. You need to run lean yet is, you know, operate with what you need to operate with and add something when it adds value. Don’t add it just for the sake of having another new toy. Why? Because not only are you going to get distracted from, you know, the ones that you actually need to use. I mean, how many of us have seen that with the spoiled kids, right? They have a way too many toys. They don’t play with any, right? Same thing. Same thing with church communicators and church marketers.

Barbara: We have way too many tools to play with. We ended up not Marsh mastering any. So I think there’s greater value in you and you being able to master, I don’t know, MailChimp and BCO and Facebook and never looking at any other thing. Then for you to have this crazy amount of time spent in 20 tools every week. W like I was saying at the beginning like we do, I always recommend churches creating a tool shed. And there are many reasons for that. So your tool shed will show you how much money you’re actually spending in tools every month. Most people have no clue. Justin tools. I’m just saying that just, just software, not even, you know, outsource nothing, just software. You probably not going to be very happy once you put it all in a spreadsheet and you see how much you’re actually spending and then look at how much you’re actually using.

Barbara: Chances are 20% of those tools that are pretty much carrying 80% of your workload. So the tool shed doesn’t matter what you use. We, we use Dropbox paper for that. We list every piece of software we use, how much it costs and what it does. So a few things, funny enough, I always tell people this because it’s the most interesting part about the tool shed. I have the tools I use and I have the tools. I do not use some strain, but here’s why. Here’s why I need to, if I have tested and demoed a tool in some point in time, I don’t want to, I don’t want to have to think about why I didn’t pick it six months ago. So if I stumble upon a tool, I want to go to my tool shed. And see, why am I not using this? And sometimes it will simply say it’s too expensive or we’re currently using I dunno, active campaign for that or I don’t seem to trust them or it seems like their customer support is not too good.

Barbara: Like whatever the reason was for me to not decide to go with that tool. So when a tool comes my way, the first thing I do go to my tool shed. Have I tested this thing before? Yes or no? Okay. Goes to the bottom of my list. That means, as of right now, I am not gonna test this tool. So resisting shiny objects, that’s what I do. That always works because I’m saying to my brain, you will test it out. Just not right now. So it’s giving me the opportunity to do it, but I’m saying not in the middle of my day when I’m working. So have you ever been in the airport waiting for your flight or I dunno, like a lazy Saturday, which we never have, but I don’t know. Maybe you know there won’t be occasions here and there where you may have some extra time. Allow yourself the time to go to your playground, go to your tool shed, see the tools are listed in the bottom and say, okay, I’m going to test one, two, three, four, five as many as you want to test out and then you categorize them.

Barbara: Okay, this one I’m going to start using it. It feels, I feel like it fits our process and I can handle it in my team. So I’m going to put it on the top and I’m going to say from now on, my team will know that this tool is available for us. So if my team needs to do, let’s say image editing, they can go into my tool shed and they can say they can search image editing. Oh, we’re already paying for Canva. Well, Kim was not a good example for image editing, but you know what I’m saying, so you know what I’m saying. So, okay, we’re, we’re, we’re already using program X, Y, and Z for image editing so they can just request a passer and start using it. You can use this internally with all of your team. Maybe it’s just, you know, they can view, they don’t have the ability to change it. They can just view it. But at least you have like this highly-detailed spreadsheet of everything that the church is currently using or what’s available. And also why you’re not using another piece of software. So imagine here comes ms Jane and says, Hey, we need to start using blank. And I can tell her, Hey, go to this little shed, see what’s in there. And she can go and see, Oh, you guys have already tested it out. It seems it’s too expensive for us right now.

Adam: So it was a tool shed. You mentioned Dropbox paper is a tool shed, something that’s a document that’s publicly accessible that different people can contribute to. Okay.

Barbara: Yeah. So and, and another thing that sometimes is interesting is I want my team to be able to propose software so they can come in, they can add and say, Hey, I would love for us to evaluate X, Y, and Z. And so we are able to look at that. So if they need, for example, I would be the one saying, okay, let’s spend that money, but they can suggest so I can then whenever we have the time, go through that piece of software and decide, okay, it seems like this would be a great tool for us to have. It’s been approved, moves up and now the whole team has access to it.

Adam: Yeah, that’s really good and I think that’s a helpful way that you can, you know, say I like the shiny new object, I’m going to go for it, but just not right now. Like I think that’s key to being able to take a breath and say I would love to check out the new something or other, but until my work today is done, I’m not going to get distracted that way. Right. Because then what’s going to happen to you is you’re going to be doing your work after hours cause you spend all day chasing the new tiny shiny tool to find out it didn’t do what you needed it to, but now you’re stressed at night. Flip that around. You get the stuff you have to get done during the day, then at night, you’re poking around with a tool. If you find out it doesn’t do what you needed it to. The stress level is different just by shifting those few things around.

Barbara: Yeah. And you know, we all have those crazy bookmarks, you know, we bookmark a whole bunch of stuff that we want it to ever, I don’t know, in some time in the future. So, and now, and some of those may be tools that now are getting lost in this crazy amount of tabs that I never go back to. So this gives me the discipline to also be like, okay, if it’s a tool that goes there and I allow myself that playground time because we’re all nerds, let’s be honest, we all like to play with these tools and it’s always cool to see the new feature. And so for me, it’s like even during the day, so let’s say there’s a day where you’re just stressed out and I don’t, things are just not going so well. Allow yourself that treat. And I’m like, you know what? I’m just going to clear my mind. I’m just going to test out a couple of things that I had here and that gives you a little break sometimes, you know, so it helps out.

Adam: Yeah, I love that. And I think that there are probably some tools that you would recommend that each church could probably consider adopting. So whether they’ve used these tools or not. I know you mentioned planning center online. You mentioned MailChimp. Give us a few tools that you would say have to be part of that toolkit or that tool shed and give us a little bit of explanation about what they do and why you choose them.

Barbara: I’m actually gonna be tool agnostic with you because I feel like, yeah, because there’s, there’s greater power in the two pieces that come before, but let me talk about the, you know, what you’re trying to achieve. So I believe that many churches are lacking a project management system. You know, I’m a big fan of Asana myself. And I think it fits the needs of many churches. But any project management system would do it. In fact, if nothing else, even a spreadsheet sometimes would be sufficient just to get things going. So project management systems are lacking greatly. Everything is in the brain of one person. Nobody knows what task comes after, what if that person is sick away or absent for some reason. Things just completely stall and that’s how this person burns out because he’s the only one able to execute or know what happens next.

Barbara: And so we need to remove these processes from our brains and create templates. So that is by far the main thing you can do. I don’t care if you only have three tasks written down, there’s a high chance you probably doing the same thing over and over and over every week. So just put them that like what’s the process for creating a bulletin? What’s the process for sending out a newsletter? Write them down. The second one is email marketing. We underestimate the value that email marketing has in the church. And so I believe that there needs to be a piece, a component there that allows you to email a mass email. And segment that list. So segmentation is by far one of the main features I would say look for. So something like MailChimp will probably be a good starting, you know a piece of software.

Barbara: I wouldn’t say I’m like the biggest MailChimp MailChimp fan because that little monkey when it’s sweating, by the time I pressed that button, it always makes me feel like I’ll be like, okay, I don’t know if I want to press it now. You know, you’re making me so nervous right now. But it, you know, joking aside, it’s simple enough, it’s easy to use. But you can go in any other direction. There are many tools out there, but segmentation probably be a big, big piece. And then obviously volunteer management churches grow sometimes without having that in place. And that’s when chaos settles. It sells. And when they’re just like, Oh, I don’t know how to, I don’t know who’s available on it, who’s doing what? And they don’t even know. The volunteers themselves don’t know what’s going on. So those three pieces will probably be in my opinion, the big pieces to have in place. Everything else. Maybe it’s an add on if that makes sense. You know, like depends on your church. It depends on how much you’re doing and what you need to execute on a weekly basis. So,

Adam: So while being tool agnostic, the things you for sure need to cover project management, email marketing as well as volunteer management. Is there anything else that needs to go on that list? Now you’re making me wonder if I’m good. Still remain tool agnostic. I’ll give you an example. I was speaking with the church and they were about to spend $4,000 on a server and I said, do you know how much Dropbox is? So I would recommend cloud storage probably fits into that toolbox.

Barbara: Yeah. And that’s actually a good, a good reminder. And even or how to organize those files. It’s, it’s nightmare territory just to look at how, how we’re organizing our files or not organizing our files. And so funny enough, that’s probably another episode for us to talk about at some point. But the whole like final of final of final, the last of all the final files, like that is a process that absolutely needs to go in the church. We just have to end it. And so we’ve created a system as well that allows us to know, okay. Whenever it’s finals final, there’s no, you know, so until then, until it’s really final and it’s version one, version two, three, four, five, six. So it’s also easy for people to point back and say, Hey, let’s go back to five or six or whatever

Adam: Folder that has 8,000 images and it’s called kids pics and it’s like I am G underscore zero eight, four, seven,

Barbara: Right. Any, yeah, you, you’ll never be able to find out any, anything in that folder. So folder, organization and again with the storage, you’re absolutely right. That’s probably going to be high in the list as well.

Adam: Okay. Well that will, that’s going to have to be another podcast episode. It sounds like Barbara, how to organize your file structure. We’re going to dig right into the nerdiness on that one. Far more needed than you and Matt. We’ll get right into the weeds. Well, I think the challenge is that some churches have this perspective that, you know, I’m the video guy, so I know how videos are named and I’m the kids faster. So I know how kids’ images are named. And the challenge is you may not be there forever for whatever reason, and hopefully, it’s because of growth and you add more people to the team. And 12 years from now when you want to do a recap video and you want a little more organized, but I digress. Barbara, just give us a word of encouragement for people who are chasing the shiny new toys and how they can focus on really accomplishing the things that need to be done rather than chasing the what-ifs or the potential.

Barbara: Yeah. I would say just write down everything you’re using right now. You’d be surprised by how many tools you’re actually using and you probably don’t need that many. So let go of the ones that don’t bring you joy and just stick to the ones that are actually moving the needle. So again, there’s, there’s a place and I think having the tool shed allows you that playground cause I think it’s good to have, even if you never use those tools that we all like to play with, with technology. So allow yourself that playground but then be efficient in what you’re using and why. So look at them with objectivize I’m spending all this money in software every month. What is it achieving? So [inaudible]

Adam: Well, the first thing I’m going to do when we’re done this call is start my own tool shed document and share it with my team. And they’ll either love me for it or I’ll blame Barbara, but I can see it being a really good thing and really helping focus. And again, I go back to that idea that you get to say, I’m not ignoring the potential of that tool. It’s just not for right now. Exactly. And I think that that creates a focus. Barbara, thank you so much for hanging out with me on the podcast today. If people want to learn more about you and also tell us a little bit about four 12 labs. While we’re here, how can they get all that information?

Barbara: Yeah, so you know, what I told you about today is actually one of the modules that we learned together. So helping church communicators go from being accidental to excelling at what they do. The program is called four 12 lab and if you go to four 12, so that’s four, one, two Then you will see pretty much all of the curriculum. It is not an online course in the traditional sense of the word. We actually run together in cohorts. So there’ll be a mentor assigned to your group. We go together as a group, we learn together, there’s a lot of community involved in it and there’s accountability. So we’ll get you to decide to S you know on something that you’re going to do and then keep you accountable to executing it and listen to people that have graduated. They’re still sending us notes of things they’ve been able to do and buy in. They’ve been getting from leadership and how things have changed over time. So just head onto the website and sign up. Yeah,

Adam: I love it. Now somebody wants to track you down personally. What’s your favorite GoTo social media channel. I know it’s not the ground. No, it’s not the instinct.

Barbara: Yeah, track me now. Yeah. You know, I, I actually use Instagram quite a lot for my clients, but not for myself. I don’t know why. Just, I don’t know. I okay. Okay. Let me tell you. I know why they don’t let me know who people are. It’s, I have to figure out what the usernames are. And I was like, I don’t know who crazy lady wants you. Three is, I don’t know. These people are. So that’s what frustrates me a little bit about Instagram is I don’t know who’s posting what. I don’t even know if they’re my friends. So a on Facebook is a little bit easier. So yeah, Facebook is probably where you’re going to find me the most. So if you look for my name Barbara coronary problem, I find Beasley. Thank you so much Barbara, for hanging out today and it’s an honor to have you on the podcast. And it sounds like we’ve got another episode we’re going to have to record about filing structures. Sounds good. Talk soon. Bye.