Simplifying our church communications strategy to be more effective

with Wes Gay

Show links:

This podcast’s transcript with Adam McLaughlin and Wes Gay:

Adam: Wes, thank you so much for hanging out with me today.

Wes Gay: Hey man, thanks for having me, man. I appreciate your time. And unfortunately well we’re recording just after Thanksgiving, unfortunately, had a bit of a mishap.

Wes Gay: Uh yeah, so I look and it’s, it looks like I was in a fight on Black Friday like my hands pretty banged up all this.

Adam: Yes, But did you get the TV?

Wes Gay: I got the TV and I got the Legos, so you should see the other guy. I said no. I had a little mishap. I got a gas smoker. I was going to smoke Turkey for Thanksgiving, not like Colorado smoked Turkey like actually smoked it. Right. And there was a problem with igniting the ignition or the igniter and there’s apparently a leak down there somewhere. I pushed the button whammo I got hit with a fireball and like I said before we started, it’s like, it’s like the windburn of snow skiing, but I didn’t actually get to go snow skiing. So with all the fun were none of the, yeah, all the pain or that the black diamond so.

Adam: Well, I appreciate you taking time anyway to hang out with me on the podcast and just give us a high-level overview of where you’re at and what you’re up to now.

Wes Gay: Sure. Yeah. So for a little over three years I have been what’s called a StoryBrand certified guide. Now I run a StoryBrand certified agency. We help organizations understand and implement the StoryBrand framework in their business. So think we do, right before this call, I was on a client call with a group I was with in San Diego a couple of weeks ago. We’re trying to reposition their whole brand because they are a super confusing product and a super difficult industry. And the problem was they sounded like everybody else but they weren’t like everybody else. So we use a storytelling framework or StoryBrand to help reposition them better for their target audience.

Wes Gay: Prior to that, for about 10 years, I worked in churches and nonprofits. You know, everybody listening knows you can have a title and a church, but it is useless because the bulk of the work is other duties as assigned by the supervisor. My work typically was marketing communications, IT, and I was only the IT guy because I was usually one of one if not the only person under 40. And so in churches, nonprofits, if you’re under 40, you’re the it experts. Yeah. Which man, I just fixed printers and restarted windows machines. It was literally my, that role and then I, you know, did some worship stuff cause my dad’s a worship pastor. So I grew up in that world. Was a youth pastor one point, all kinds of preached. I mean, I’ve done everything you can possibly do on a Sunday morning from running camera to, I think I directed the choir one time in a church I was at to preaching to play in the band. You name it. I’ve done it. So so yeah. So my day to day consists of running a business, right? So I’m in the world now where I’m getting a guy, clients I’m working with and prospects I’m trying to sell to and always creating new ideas, new products to, to deliver more things of value to the marketplace.

Adam: Yeah. Well, I, I’m, I’m so excited to have you here and I love bringing someone who understands church world but also understands business world and can help us kind of merge the two, right? Take the principles from

Adam: Business world, but put it in a context that makes sense to help build trust and impact our communities through our churches. And the blog posts that we’re going to be talking about today is one that you wrote about failure and how you could make failure your new year’s resolution. So this is going to air early in January. If somebody hasn’t already made their resolution, why would we choose failure as a new year’s resolution? Sure.

Wes Gay: Full disclosure, I got that idea from Jon Acuff so I’m not original. I just want to get that into the universe in case. I’ll in case our buddy Jon Acuff. Listen. So you know, one of the things that plagues everybody, and it’s not just churches, I think sometimes churches think they are fully unique unto themselves. And the reality is there are things about a church that are unlike any under any other industry on the planet. For example, churches are the only industry I’ve ever seen that has a weekly deadline. It’s always Sunday, right? NFL, the NFL has a weekly deadline for like 20 weeks out of the year. Churches have it 52 weeks out of the year, right? So nobody has a deadline like churches at the same time, the challenges, the frustrations, the hurdles, all that happens in business too, right? It’s this, a lot of the same stuff.

Wes Gay: You’ve seen it too with your work. And so I think what happens is we, everybody is, a lot of people tend to be plagued with ambition. We see what other people are doing, we see what’s new, we have our great ideas. And the turning of the calendar of a new year. Now that we’re in 2020 and everybody can have all their 2020 visions for churches right now. Now it’s 20, 25 we’re pushing it out five years cause we didn’t get our appointment. But I digressed. And so we have all these things. The problem is though, we never stop and think about what should we stop doing? Like, what should we eliminate? Because if you look at people who are the greatest in the world of what they do, regardless of what they do, I’m talking everybody from Jay Z to tiger woods to Disney.

Wes Gay: I mean, you name it, whether it’s an individual, an athlete, a brand, whatever, the best in the world tend to be laser-focused on what they did really well and they forget everything else, right? And, and in order to, I think in order to, to be more effective, we’ve got to limit what we’re doing. So when I talk about failures, news resolution, it’s being willing to say, what am I going to stop doing? What am I going to take off my plate? What am I going to say no to? And these are good things. What am I saying? How do I say no to the good things that I can say yes to more of the best things? All right? So for example obviously a lot of people that are listening are probably Apple fanboys and Apple fangirls, right? We have all the Apple things.

Wes Gay: But if you look at a brand like Apple, they have admitted something. Excuse me. Some things that don’t work, like people, might forget. Apple had a social network, I remember PING it was their social network within iTunes. Now if Apple wanted to, they could probably dominate that space, but it would take too much resources, too much time, too much diversion away from their, their core offering of great hardware and great software that’s integrated really, really seamlessly, better than anyone else in the planet. Right? So when it comes to churches, we have to be willing to say, what am I going to say no to? So I can, I can say no to more things. So I can say yes to the right things. And that’s hard because especially in we’re in communities online and other groups of people like us in our roles and in our churches, there’s sometimes a little bit of bigger, faster, stronger mentality.

Wes Gay: We have to keep up. We have to, they’re doing this. So we should do that. You know, we should try to pursue this. We should try to get this done. And there’s almost like there’s a philosophical pressure on people now. I say that because if you’re familiar with the StoryBrand framework at all, one of the things we talk about is every brand should solve a problem, right? So I, I’ll talk a lot about brands. Like CarMax is a great one. Chick-Fil-A is a great one. They solve multiple layers of problems. Cause on a story, it’s never just a problem. The surface-level issue, like the bomb is going to explode. It’s always the bombs going to explode and the bombs underneath an orphanage and Dwayne, the rock Johnson was an orphan and now he’s missing his leg because he stepped on a landmine and can he diffuse the bomb?

Wes Gay: But he was mocked in middle school and Kenny, like there’s all these layers to stuff, right? And so there’s always this kind of philosophical, fundamental issue in. So I think in churches we, we think that we have this philosophical pressure. We should be doing all the things. We should be on every social network even though our church is probably only 600 people, you know, we should kill the bulletin because somebody else did. When in reality bulletins are great. We shouldn’t have a church app because somebody says we shouldn’t, or we should have a church app or we should, you know, like there’s all this pressure and so I think if we can do this, okay, I would, I would much rather kill some stuff and stop doing some things and be willing to try and fail and say, okay, Nope, I’m going to put that over here so that I can be better at these things here.

Wes Gay: For example, at a church you might need to say, Hey, or here’s an example. I worked at a church one time where the pastor kept saying, we have to invest more energy on Twitter. I like Twitter. Personally. It’s the only social network where anybody can connect to anybody really, really easily in conversations can get really fun. The kinds of connections you see between celebrities and normal people happen only on Twitter didn’t have him. Right. It’s really kind of fun to that. All the cool stories are from Twitter, but we were like, we’re a church of 1500 we have 142 followers. Take out the staff. It’s like 135 why are we investing on Twitter when we have an audience on Facebook? It’s like, Oh, we need to reach people on Twitter. But why? Like I like to just, our audience isn’t there, so why don’t we invest in Facebook and Instagram and nothing else? Right? Why don’t we invest in Facebook and Instagram and our email list, right? Let’s be willing to say yes to the right things and say no to everything else.

Adam: Yeah. And I love the conversation that it’s not just what is the right thing or the wrong thing, but you mentioned earlier something might be good, but the real question is, is it the best? Is it the best for who we’re trying to reach? Is it the best solution for our concern? So that’s one of the traps that I think we fall into at churches are saying that church is or isn’t doing it. So that means it’s right or wrong. Whereas instead of saying that church is doing it that way because they’re working to reach that audience, we could do it this way because our audience is different. So unpack a few more practical examples of that for us.

Wes Gay: Yeah, so here’s a super practical, in our first church I served, I’d worked for a nonprofit in college after college and then I went off to have a church a year or two later. And within six months I was put on we didn’t have a communications department. There were 1200 or 1,500-weekend attendance. I was put on a, I think we call it like a communications review team or something, churches love committees. And so it was me and a handful of other staff members in the church had built a new facility in like 2007 and then 2008 hit. So we were super in debt, right? What a time to build a new facility. And so anyway, they had tried to be this young, it was really kind of like they wanted to be this hip, gen X friendly, super edgy church. And you know, they played crazy train on Sunday morning, on Sunday morning.

Wes Gay: They played one of the funniest country songs ever called, “I’ll Pray for you.”If y’all haven’t listened to it, it’s hilarious.

Adam: We’ll YouTube it in the show notes.

Wes Gay: Yeah, I mean it’s like that they did a series on Farmville because Farmville had been big at that point. It was like, what are we doing? And so when they built the building, they, one of the things they did was they named the lobby the Concourse. And I was like, all right, and then the name, we’re Baptist, we’re Southern Baptist for a hundred since 1882 or something or 1870 something. And they had named the fellowship hall, the conference hall. So we’re in this little communications meeting and I’m running it. And I said, Hey what do they call it, the Concourse? And somebody said, Oh, well, you know, we thought that was fresh and blah, blah, blah. I said, what was the last building you went in with a Concourse and they sat there and the facilities guy was in the room and he was like the Atlanta airport.

Wes Gay: I was like, yeah, we’re a church. We’re not the airport, we have a lobby, we don’t have a Concourse. Right. So what happened was we were trying to be something, we weren’t at the end of the day. The other thing was I said, we’re Baptist, we fellowship, we don’t conference call it the fellowship hall. But what did about what was happening? Cause we were trying to live into this identity that was not us. Right. And that’s the fundamental issue I think is churches will play the comparison game and ignore the context of the community around them. They want to see what other churches are doing and jump onto church trends when in reality most of our staff doesn’t even care about church trans much less the people who are feeling coming to the seats every week. And so we decided, you know what, we’re a first Baptist church, has been around since the late 1800s we have in some cases, two, three, four generations of families who were there.

Wes Gay: I did a video interview for a guy one time. He was in his eighties the only other church ever been to was when they would have Sunday services on the beaches of France in world war II. I was like, he said that, and I looked at the staff like I was like, what? Just what? Anyways, but that was who we were. And so when we decided to live more into who we were and identify who we were, it helped us start to say no to more things. It’s the same process I think a lot of us go through in our own lives. Right? So I tell, I always tell people whether it’s a business or personally, if you want to figure out what your, what you should be doing or what you’re really good at, start by listing all the things you either hate doing or are not good at all.

Wes Gay: Right. You know, like my first job out of college worked for this nonprofit. We did leadership training and development for middle and high school students. And one of the illustrations we always used was the David statue. Michelangelo, right? So when Michelangelo sits down to him and he sees this giant, probably very, very expensive block of marble, Michelangelo sees the David statue inside of it. But what did he do? Has to chip away at it and keep pulling stuff back, pulling back until he gets to that point where they say you’re finished. Not when you can add anything else, but when you can’t take anything else away. And so I think it becomes the real issue for churches is what is our identity, right. I went to a church here, not far from me. I live North of Atlanta. My wife and I went a couple of years ago and we walked in because we were looking for a new church and I immediately thought, why is nobody on stage dressed like anybody in this room?

Wes Gay: Like there were 607 or eight people in the room. Not a soul on stage looked anything like anybody in the room. And I’m not saying you need to dress business casual or whatever. We were dressed like, I’m just saying be who you are in the place you were in. Don’t dress like you’re at Hillsong if you’re in. Mmm, I dunno. Jasper, Georgia [inaudible] down was a little bit down notorious. They do care. That’s not where you are. So I think this is obviously a, I think a more fundamental conversation, but if we can get comfortable with who we are, it also means we’re comfortable with who we’re not. And when we finally make that decision and we stick to it, we’re being a lot, we’re really being wise because whether it’s business or it’s church in churches we have, we only have so much time, energy, money, and attention that we can invest. So we’re, we’re, we’re spending our time and spending our energy and spending our money on things to get, to promote or to get people involved or move them forward. And the next steps are to get them to become leaders or volunteer or whatever. And we only have so much attention of our audience. None of this is unlimited. So if we can, if we only have such a finite amount, if we spend it wrongly, we lose their trust. But we also lose out on opportunities to get them to really engage in and connected with us.

Adam: So dig in for me a little bit because I think churches tend to fall into a ditch on either side of this road and one of the ditches is that we are who we are and take it or leave it. And then the other ditch is we’re going to figure out who we want to reach and we’re going to everything to them. Exactly. Yeah. How can you find the balance in between those two where you’re genuine to who you are and at the same time you’re meeting a need that people in your community have?

Wes Gay: Yeah. So yeah, I guess it was spring of 2018 I had, I’d worked with a lot of people, one was Pushpay, I worked with them for a while on a bunch of different capacities. One of the things I did with them was they kinda did a multi-city tour and I would speak and do the story-brand presentation as part of it will want their, one of their marketing directors letting anything. Becca Johnson, who is genius, she’s in the, she’s gonna be embarrassed if she hears this. She’s in the church comms group. She is one of the most brilliant marketing minds I’ve ever encountered. It’s incredible. So she did this whole talk on personas for churches and are vividly remember where I was. We’re sitting in Nashville, there’s probably 25 or 30 churches represented and she said, Hey, everybody, identify who you one audience or one persona in marketing, we call it, that your church is really equipped to reach effectively the way you do that as they got hoot normally comes to your church and who physically lives in your community.

Wes Gay: And so we do it and she goes to all of them. And out of the 25 or 30 churches, no two churches had the same audience. And I was, I was speaking I think after her, so I’m sitting off to the side and she just looks at me like, right. I mean in Nashville is not huge and there’s a million people or whatever in Metro Nashville. And she immediately said, now why are we in competition with each other? We’ve just identified 25 churches in Nashville if some are a pretty good size that aren’t reaching the same people at all. I thought what a moment. So I think so when it comes to churches, is it we are who you are and get on board or get out the door or we’re going to change everything and not really know who we are in, but we want to be effective.

Wes Gay: I think the middle ground becomes, first of all what has God gifted George Church with? Like what are you really good at? What are you equipped with? Where are you physically located? Again, the path. The church or the pastor was keen on Twitter. He really was annoyed. We didn’t have a thriving college ministry. We were like, we’re not in a college town. By definition, you can’t have college students if you don’t have a college nearby. It just doesn’t work that way. Right? Why are we investing in a college ministry when they’re, the closest college is 30 minutes away and it’s a just a small community college in the big state schools over an hour away. Nobody’s driving an hour to us. They’re just not. But that’s okay. If the churches around the big school, the schools, they can invest in college mysteries, that makes them for us.

Wes Gay: So I think it starts with where are you located, what are the demographics in a three to five-mile radius of where you are? I think sometimes we have aspirations of reaching people beyond that because we think, Oh, it would be really great if we reached X, but that people, those people don’t live there, right? There are people who are one, three, five miles away. So let’s start there. That’s I start. The second thing I would do is look at what has God either gifted your church at or where has God placed your church? What do you, what is your church just kind of naturally have a bent towards in terms of kind of the existing culture. And then third, how do you marry those two? So how do you take the people who live in your community, the people who are already engaged in your church, and then how do you kind of match those? You said we’re going to reach more people like the ones that are in our church because we know for whatever reason, we’re really effective at reaching these people. Well, we also realize there are new audiences in our community that we’re not really sure are being reached effectively. So let’s develop a strategy to expand as well because this is who God’s called us to serve in our community.

Adam: Right? And I think that sums it up perfectly where we can find a balance. You know, when I talk with churches I ask them do they lean 60, 40 this way or 60, 40 that way because I want to be really clear that it has to be, you know, close to a balance. When we’re talking about finding that balance and we’re talking about reaching new people, when do we know that it’s time to expand what we’re trying to do to reach new people and when what are some of the indicators that it might be time to more narrowly focused?

Wes Gay: Well, I would always start with you should always start by narrow by narrowing your focus. So one of the things I see with our clients all the time that I’d tell people that we have to get them on board with is the more specific you are, and this is a marketing thing, the more specific you are in marketing, the more effective your marketing is going to be. One of the best examples ever is I’ve got it on my bookshelf over there somewhere is the four-hour workweek by Tim Ferris. It’s one of the most popular books written the last 1213 years was written two thousand seven thousand eight and on the 10th anniversary of that book, he did an interview on it. He had a conversation on his own podcast, easy to promote, I guess on a ton of your podcast about the book and one of the things you said was the first draft was awful, but he said, he said he knew he had things in there he wanted to share, so he went back and wrote the second draft.

Wes Gay: He rewrote the whole thing. He wrote it to, it was basically a long-form letter to two really good friends. One was really struggling personally with family and relationships and just a lot going on. The other one was struggling professionally and he literally thought if, if this book helps these two guys, I’ve done my job, he has sold like 3 million copies and his whole brand is built on that book. I mean he’s, it is consistently still 12 years later, one of the top three or five books highlighted on Amazon without a doubt, right. His, everything is coming out book. But it started about being really, really specific. So I’m convinced the more you narrow your focus, the more people understand. Oh yeah, that’s for me because when you go broad and vague and big picture, we’re all left wondering is that, is that for me?

Wes Gay: I don’t, I’m not really sure. I don’t really know exactly. So the first thing is, is get trying to get really specific. There’s a church out of Phoenix Christ’s Church of the Valley and they have, I don’t know, six or seven campuses run several thousand a weekend. And I got to have a conversation with her, one of their XPS last year and he was telling me they have one persona that they reach and they said it’s a, it’s one of church of thousands and thousands and thousand. And he said, “We call him Max. We made up a name. He said he’s in his early forties. He’s a white-collar business professional cause that’s who lives in our, that’s where we are. And he said he’s probably got two or three kids. You know, kids are late elementary, probably more middle school, just based on his age.” And he starts running down the list and he said, everything we do is geared towards that guy.

Wes Gay: Our church swag is Nike golf polos is our church logo because we live in Arizona. People play golf. Like we don’t need coveralls because it’s not cold enough. I mean, I know people in Arizona in California, freak out if it’s below 60 reasonably up. He said the reason is we knew if we could focus on the dad and get the dad in the door, the whole is going to come. We have a much greater chance to reach that the dad. So that’s what everything started touring. They’re doing really, really well. The first thing I would say is, is narrow that focus and say, okay, specifically let’s want up by one, two or three maybe types or groups of people we know our church is really effective at engaging with. It could be young families, it could be more middle-age kids, a little bit older or it could, you know who those groups are.

Wes Gay: Right? and sometimes it means language-specific groups. You’ve got strong communities of people who are English as a second language, you know, thinking out of the box. So once you know what’d you get really, really specific, then it actually opens the door and says, okay, now that we’ve kind of painted our box and we know exactly the field we’re playing in, we can better understand the rules and know, okay, now we can go reach those people. And this is something that that’s always happening in business. We’re always looking at sales and marketing. The difference in churches, unlike a business where we, you do, you do marketing and business to your current customers because you want to keep them coming back and keep them engaged and lifetime value and all that. But in church what we’re actually doing is we’re using the people who are quote-unquote customers or the people who are already engaged and we’re using them to help us go out. So then it becomes what is our strategy to use our people to go out and reach more people and it becomes this multiplying effect that’s always happening. I always think about how do we use our people to reach more people because that is part of the discipleship process that’s part, of continuing to grow our church and continuing to fulfill the great commission and doing what our church is called to do. So what,

Adam: What do you say or how do we explain to a leader who might be listening or somebody who has to now go explain to their leader this idea and the pushback that the leader has is, well, our church is welcoming to everybody. Sure.

Wes Gay: There’s a difference between welcoming to everybody and serving somebody really, really well. Like I never, I didn’t say that. First of all, I didn’t say that there was anybody who was a sole audience, right? You have primary audiences and you can be welcoming to anybody. That’s fine. But it’s, it’s going back to where is your church located? Who lives in your area and who are you? Do you feel like you’re really equipped to serve? Right? Knowing you’re going to be welcoming to anybody if your church is geared towards young families. But if you have a couple in their late sixties and moves to town and lows, your church, you’re not going to say leave. Right? I mean, some people might cause I think they’re allergic to old people in churches, which I don’t understand and that’s a whole separate episode. But yeah, I think it just really becomes, you can be welcoming to all, but at the end of the day, you only have so many resources.

Wes Gay: You only have so much time. You only have so much attention of your audience. You have to make the decisions. It’s like what is best for the people we’re trying to reach. It’s going to be most effective and bring the best quote unquote return so that we can be good stewards of what we’ve been given.

Adam: So, Wes, somebody listening right now and they’re saying, okay, I’ve got my new year’s resolution. I’m ready to quit. Where do I start? What would you say is the number one way to evaluate the first step in figuring out what you need to quit?

Wes Gay: Quit going to meetings. No, I’m just kidding. Quit your next meeting. Kidding. yeah, that’s a great question. So I would look it kind of super tactical things like what are some of the things that are on your calendar in terms of tasks, projects or responsibilities that you handle often that you go, I just don’t think this is working.

Wes Gay: Like why are we doing this? This seems it could be inefficient, it could be on ineffective, it could be, you know, that kind of thing. Cause I think if you focus there, that’s a lot easier than trying to go really big picture. Why do we have this program? Why don’t we have this ministry? Why do we devote staff resources to this? Those are big, high-level things that are harder to answer. But start with the things that you have full control over. I’ve, I’m still in this example I heard from a guy who’s a senior vice president, Chick-fil-A years ago and he said everything falls into one of three buckets. Things you can control, things you can influence and things you can either influence nor control. So I start with what are the things that you control in your job, in your world, right.

Wes Gay: Let’s start there and say, okay, maybe it’s looking at all of our social networks is if it’s Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Justin Dean is, if you listen to Justin Dean, you’re not on Snapchat. I have no idea. I’m not on tiktok. I have no idea. But I mean evaluate all of the things you’re doing, all the places you are. Just look at all of it and say, okay, what? What either makes me want to run from the building screaming every time I see this or what do I think is just really not effective? Like it’s not reaching people. It’s not engaging. It’s not. It’s not helping our church that when you do, it’s a real drain on us. My guess is people listening to this before were doing that process before going to that process already know the answer. They could probably name three to five things or now like, man, I just really wish I could quit it.

Wes Gay: So then your next thing becomes, can you really stop doing that without, do you have a full authority? If you great stop it or delegated handed off to somebody else, maybe look to be more efficient about it. But that’s, I’d start with things that you have full control over that are super tactical and create a little bit of breathing room and say, okay, I’m going to stop doing these things in the new year. It’s just not where that, we may pick those things back up later, but at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. I will encourage people and say, I’m potentially working with a church in 2020. It’s one of the 10 largest churches in the country and they want to go through the StoryBrand process, but they really I’m part of another guy’s bringing me in. He’s another outside guy where he’s trying to help the executive team build their, their whole strategy.

Wes Gay: They’ve got nine or 10 campuses, tens of tens of thousands of people that weekend, and there’s no strap process for filtering decisions. It’s like, how did we get to this point? And I’ve talked to other people. I’ve talked to a guy who’s on staff at one of the top three churches in the country. I posted that comment somewhere and he texted me. He’s like, Hey man, we’re having the same problem. It’s like everybody has that problem. So there are, there are the big churches too are trying to figure out, okay, what do we need to cut back so we can continue growing? Right? Where do we need to trim over here so we can focus more over there? Because the end of the day it comes down to are you and your church staff being good resources of the time, money and attention that you’re given in order to reach the most people and be as effective as you can be.

Adam: Wes, man, so much to take in in a single interview. I know this is going to be one that I personally am going to listen to a few times and I hope our listeners will relisten back to them if they have some questions about some of the things we’ve talked about, some of the ideas we’ve talked through. What’s the best way for them to connect with you? What’s your social media network?

Wes Gay: The one I’ve, I default to the most is actually Twitter cause it’s the easiest and it’s the, you’re limited to 280 characters. So I can’t be sold on your multilevel marketing product as easily and I can’t hear your political rant. I can’t read you the political rants as much and I can mute certain words. So Twitter @WesGay, I’m on Instagram @WesGay. I’m actually on Facebook to facebook.com/wesgay. I’m in the church communications group. I’m not on ticktock. I don’t see the point, by the way, sidebar, I think from what I’ve seen on tic talk, the best stuff I’ve seen comes from like teenagers and dads trying to outdo their teenagers. Cause some of the tick dog videos I’ve seen of dads in their forties are believable. It is like dad jokes gone live. It’s amazing. So anyway, but Facebook, Twitter, Instagram is the best place to find me.

Adam: Sounds good. And your blog of course. Wesgay.com.

Wes Gay: Yeah, sorry for the cough. I had to, right viral infections don’t translate through podcast. So just hear that we’re not there yet.

Adam: WesGay.com and if a church wants to hire you to come in and help them get themselves organized on the same page using the StoryBrand framework, give us a high level overview of what that process looks.

Wes Gay: Yeah, so there’s a couple of different ways we do it. We typically do it on-site because what we found is with churches, for businesses, churches, nonprofits, getting everybody in the room actually forces you to finally have some conversations. People typically don’t have. And it’s really because you don’t know what conversations to have. You may know there’s a problem around, for example, I was in San Diego two weeks ago with a company, they couldn’t talk about their company the same way. I literally had everybody write down 15 people in the room. What does your company do? Everybody was different. And we were like, we have a problem. And secretly I’m like, this is job security because now I can stare out. So get everybody in a room. We’re going to walk through and figure out, okay, from us, from a messaging perspective, how do we position your church well in the mind of the people who are hearing it, reading it, seeing what you’re doing so that they go, Oh yeah, I need to go check that place out. It’s, that makes a lot of sense to me. That’s the place that I need to try.

Wes Gay: So that’s what it looks like. We’re usually a half-day or full-day depending, and then we’ll do, you know, got some other options there as well. But that’s what a typical engagement looks like.

Adam: Wes, thank you so much for hanging out today. I really appreciate your time.

Wes Gay: Thanks, man. I appreciate it.